Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:37 am
citizenmike wrote: Uh oh, now I'm confused again. I'm not really worried about how things look inside QT Player right now — just trying to get a bead on what I'm seeing in Resolve.
You said "Yes, it should be Rec.709 equivalent preview on P3 screen (so not badly oversaturated one)."
I took that to mean that: despite the fact that my iMac has a P3 color profile, if I enable the "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" option while in a Rec 709 2.4 Resolve project, that Resolve will show me images within its viewers as if I'm looking at a Rec 709 2.4 monitor.
Am I right or wrong?
You can explore this thread: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=69373
I think you will not find a simple answer but it's interesting and you can see how difficult it is.
DaVinci Resolve 18.6.6 Studio (macOS Monterey 12.7.6)
Mac Pro 2013, AMD FirePro D700, 64GB RAM
Film Editor, Colorist, DIT, Datalab technician
linkedin.com/in/vít-reiter-film-editor
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:12 am
And this is right about the part of the thread where I jump in and remind people to page 1885 of the Resolve 15 manual: "Limitations When Grading With the Viewer on a Computer Display." This goes into some detail why you cannot accurately monitor directly from the computer and operating system. You have to have a color-managed output , like one from a Blackmagic display card, preferably on a calibrated external Rec709 display.
Certified DaVinci Resolve Color Trainer • AdvancedColorTraining.comMon Feb 25, 2019 6:59 pm
Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like I had exactly the wrong understanding of what "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" does.
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:03 pm
It does what it says. You are not wrong, but unfortunately BM (after initial fix) changed it in 15.2.3 into some "need to look like QT X" feature, not a proper reference look.
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:06 pm
citizenmike wrote: Uh oh, now I'm confused again. I'm not really worried about how things look inside QT Player right now — just trying to get a bead on what I'm seeing in Resolve.
You said "Yes, it should be Rec.709 equivalent preview on P3 screen (so not badly oversaturated one)."
I took that to mean that: despite the fact that my iMac has a P3 color profile, if I enable the "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" option while in a Rec 709 2.4 Resolve project, that Resolve will show me images within its viewers as if I'm looking at a Rec 709 2.4 monitor.
Am I right or wrong?
Unfortunately in Resolve 15.2.3+ it won't as for 2.4 gamma based projects BM does special correction which is designed to give same preview as QT X, not correct one.
If you go back to 15.2.2 then in theory it should give you correct preview (regardless how accurate screen is). It should match BM card preview on the same monitor. What we want to achieve is same preview over GPU and BM card on the same monitor (with same settings). Once this is achieved you just need to calibrate monitor and then it will be accurate.
Imagine we have P3 screen with 2.4 gamma and its profile describes it 100% accurately. Profile info is used by OSX color engine for any processing, so it has to be accurate. Lets just assume everything is 100% perfect. In such a case Resolve viewer should be fairly accurately able to show you any smaller gamut based format, eg Rec.709 with 2.2 gamma. At this point we have 100% accurate P3 preview, so rest is just "pure math". Of course it can't be wider gamut as then screen can't display it by its "physical" limitation. Anything below its physical limitations can be achieved by pure math (either on GPU, as LUT or on external box, etc). This is exactly what good monitors do when you switch between their presets P3 vs REc.709 or different gammas. In order to make it even more accurate we calibrate screen on regular basis, so then you are certain that your preview is accurate (fact that it left factory even well calibrated doesn't really guarantee it's accurate months later).
When you read Resolve manual remember it's all related to Resolve, not every tool. There is absolutely nothing to stop you to achieve 100% color accurate preview (actually more accurate than any SDI card there of you want to be pedantic) over GPU monitoring.
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:29 am
I read through this thread and also the manual. I too, am still a little confused on what "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" is, and how it works. I grade exclusively on my Macbook Pro, using it's built-in monitor. Sometimes I grade on an LG monitor connected to my mac via HDMI.
So with my exclusive Mac setup, should I have that option checked or unchecked?
In Davinci YRGB, I changed my timeline color space to "ACEScct." Display looked fine.
I turned on "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers." Then the viewer gets insanely contrasty. But when I export to H.264, it looks as it did before I turned on "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers."
It sounds like, with a Mac only setup (although not ideal, I understand) my best bet would be to leave "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" unchecked?
Thanks all for your patience!
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:17 pm
You can, but depending if you have wide gamut display or not you may end up with saturation issue. You would need to compensate this with preview LUT.
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:13 pm
Milk and Coffee wrote: I read through this thread and also the manual. I too, am still a little confused on what "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" is, and how it works.
You're not alone. Bear in mind though, that this is an old thread, and Resolve 16.2.3 has changed a lot from Resolve 15. BMD have added Rec.709-A, which addresses the Quicktime gamma shift discussed above. There's a sticky thread about it at the top of the forum.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that until you're using a calibrated reference monitor, you can't expect accuracy. So, to me, the "Use Mac Color Profiles" checkbox is a moot point; it doesn't affect reference monitors. I know that might come across sounding a little elitist, but don't take it that way. I don't have one at the moment, either.
-MacBook Pro (14,3) i7 2.9 GHz 16 GB, Intel 630, AMD 560 x1Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:45 pm
Totally understand! From what I can tell, setting the timeline color space to something with a wider gamut than my macbook display, shows highly contrasty and saturated images. And when still using that setting, and exporting to H.264, the rendered video looks as it did when I had "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" unchecked.
Seems to me that maybe those of us using our computer monitors should maybe leave it UNCHECKED for the most accurate representation?
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:31 pm
In case it's helpful, after I posted in this thread last year, I also posted in this thread on the Adobe Forum on the subject of color management between Premiere and Resolve.
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:05 am
Can anybody provide an explanation in Layman's terms for what "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" does?
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:28 am
Takes your video preview, looks at project settings and based on this info converts preview to display profile.
If your display profile describes your monitor accurately (it was calibrated) then you have correct preview (assuming your monitor covers gamut specified in project settings).
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:47 pm
So this feature was built to help those grading on laptop screens only, monitor more accurately? Or simply to try to resolve the gamma shift from color managed and non-color managed 3rd party viewing apps?
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:50 pm
It tries to give you correct preview.
Without color management wide gamut displays (which don't allow to switch to Rec.709 gamut) will be more difficult to use for Rec.709 projects.
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:54 pm
Thanks all! After some reading, it sounds like I need to create a display LUT to monitor more accurately with my GUI monitor.
To get as accurate as I can with a GUI display:
I have a SPYDER colorimeter, and will use displayCAL to create the LUT.
Once it's created, I should disable "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" and use the LUT for output monitoring? Right?
Or should I have "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" ENABLED in combination with the display LUT?
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:20 pm
Milk and Coffee wrote: Thanks all! After some reading, it sounds like I need to create a display LUT to monitor more accurately with my GUI monitor.
To get as accurate as I can with a GUI display:
I have a SPYDER colorimeter, and will use displayCAL to create the LUT.
Once it's created, I should disable "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" and use the LUT for output monitoring? Right?
Or should I have "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" ENABLED in combination with the display LUT?
Does anybody have and advice here?
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am
In this case you rather want it off I would say and let 1 'correction' to be active.
If it was on during calibration then you of course can't turn it off now. You need to turn off and repeat whole process.
Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:56 am
citizenmike wrote: Here is a newbie question.
I'm grading in Resolve Studio 15 on an iMac 5k Retina with its default color profile chosen in System Preferences. Unfortunately, I don't yet own an external reference monitor. I enable the "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewers" option. What am I now seeing in the Resolve viewers?
Is Resolve a) now compensating for the iMac's P3 color profile, so that the Resolve viewers look Rec 709?
Or is Resolve b) now making its own viewers look P3?
Thank you for any help.
Please read the summary on the subject below, and the article mentioned on this writing.
I can confirm that I have done all these tests using DaVinci Resolve 16.xx, iMac 27" 2020, LG C9 and Blackmagic Thunderbolt 3 4K Mini Capture and playback interface, and it works.
The fact is that starting with MacOS Catalina, all applications working under Apple ecosystem using color management, (web browsers, YouTube, Vimeo, Apple devices, etc) are expecting Rec.709 with gamma tag (1-1-1). Equal, Rec.709 -A.
To resume, uploading any video with a different gamma tag, than (1-1-1) — sRGB, 2.2, tag, (1-13-1) Rec.709, 2.4 Broadcast, tag, (1-2-1)— is going to be converted by default on the web to Rec.709 - A, tag, (1-1-1). This will cause the gamma shift. So, to avoid this, during export for the web and Apple's ecosystem, always tag the color space output to Rec.709 -A. Equal (1-1-1).
Application not using color management are going to ignore tag (1-1-1), VLC, FireFox, Adobe Premier, etc. and the image you were looking on your Resolve Viewer and your calibrated monitor is going to look wrong.
To match Resolve Viewer with QuickTime and Apple devices, in DaVinci Resolve Preferences, please activate, "Use Mac Display Color Profiles for Viewer.” And in the Timeline and Delivery page, Output, select, Rec.709-A. Or leave the Timeline Output to Rec.709 -A and in the Delivery page, select, As project. Also, try to match the video range, which can also causes contrast difference between Resolve Viewer and the exported file.
To be safe, I would suggest to give the client three masters when applicable.
- Rec.709 -A equal tag to (1-1-1 ) for the web and Apple ecosystem with application using color management.
- Rec.709 2.2 equal to tag (1-13-1) for application without color management
- Rec.709 2.4 equal tag to (1-2-1) for broadcast and to match your external calibrated monitor to that colorspace and gamma.
- Then comes HDR versions when applicable.
You can find an excellent and detailed information on the subject, including an Infographic chart, written by Dan Swierenga at The Post Process, explaining the issues and solution using Davinci Resolve as well.
I highly suggest reading his paper, 1 and 2.
https://www.thepostprocess.com/2020/07/ . time-tags/
Also, you can watch this video as an extension of Dan’s paper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=Iw . e=youtu.be
I hope this helps to take away some confusions.
Willian Aleman
New York City
USA
Resolve Studio
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2020)
MacOS: 10.15.7 (19H2)
processor: 3.8 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i7
Memory: 40 GB 2667 MHz DDR4
Graphic: AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT 16 GB
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:50 am
It does William, haven't seen any better explanation!My desaster protection: export a .drp file to a physically separated storage regularly.
Studio 19, MacOS 14.6.1, 2017 iMac, 32 GB, Radeon Pro 580
MacBook M1 Pro, 16 GPU cores, 32 GB RAM
SE, USM G3
Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:08 pm
As a follow up on the gamma shift subject, here is another writing:
How to fix an exported QuickTime video file that has the wrong color space tag.
There is an application written by Alex Mogurenko, called AMDCDX. It’s available for Windows, MacOS and Centos.
Download here: https://mogurenko.com/2021/01/29/amcdx- . er-v0-6-7/
This application allows you to change the tag of a QuickTime video file so it can be interpreted correctly by the player.
It has other advanced editing purposes than changing metadata. However, I have only used it to edit Quicktime video: Color Primaries, Transfer Function, and Matrix Coefficients tag.
In the link below Alex is providing a list of color space Primaries, Transfer Function and Color Matrix.
http://mogurenko.com/2020/09/11/amcdx-v . f_transfer
The application has a Frame, Metadata, and File to File editor. Currently, it supports metadata editing for MOV. MFX, ProRes and MP4. Recently support for HDR metadata has been added.
If you are only interested in changing the color space video tag, use the Metadata editor tab >Color(colr/nclc< to change the Primaries, Transfer Function and Color Matrix.
To do this, please, follow these steps.
1- Download the application, AMCDX
2- Lunch AMCDX
3 - From the three tabs Menu (upper right corner) please select Metadata Editor
4 - Select, Open file
5 - From the dialog box, navigate and select the video file to be tagged
6 - Once loaded from Color(colr/nclc, select Remove NCLC
7 - Enter the corresponding Color Primaries, Transfer Function, and Matrix Coefficients in each contextual submenu tab.
8 - For Rec.709 equivalent to DaVinci Resolve: Rec.709-A, (1-1-1) select, ITU-R BT. R 709 in the three tabs. Then, select, Apply at the bottom right corner of the application.
You are done!
Please see screenshots attached here.
After this, I compare side by side the image and the new tag in QuickTime Player.
The new video file looks identical to Resolve Viewer, if you have followed the steps described in the previous response I did on this thread.
Note 1: I always make a copy of the original before I process to do this operation.
Note 2: Please notice that the application is not actually changing your grade within the video file. It’s changing the metadata for the file to be interpreted correctly outside the color grading studio.
In other words, it’s like this: my name is Willian Aleman. Most of my friends call me Willy. I’m still the same person who responses to his nickname too. Well, it’s something like that.
The full range versus legal range is another story.
You can avoid going into all this by using DaVinci Resolve with the right color management for the delivery color space with the right tag, as described in the previous email I wrote on this thread.
Hope this helps.
Thanks at lot to Alex Morurenko for developing AMCDX, and for his kind and prompt responses to my questions at his blog. Additional thanks to Dan Swierenga at The Post Process for his excellent writing describing the gamma shift and how to fix it using the right metadata tag.
Attachments AMCDX interface showing the tagged video file in the Colr/nclc tab 02_WA_AMCDX_TAGGETED_VIDEO.png (875.04 KiB) Viewed 8419 times AMCDX interface showing the source untagged video file in the Colr/nclc tab 01_WA_AMCDX_UNTAGGETED_VIDEO.png (865.24 KiB) Viewed 8419 times
Last edited by Willian Aleman on Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.Willian Aleman
New York City
USA
Resolve Studio
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2020)
MacOS: 10.15.7 (19H2)
processor: 3.8 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i7
Memory: 40 GB 2667 MHz DDR4
Graphic: AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT 16 GB